Welcome back to The Aspiring New Leader podcast. There’s a lot of talk going on throughout the business world revolving around women in the workplace and the challenges they face, so today, Dan and Jacob have decided to interview one very inspiring woman currently working in a managerial position at the hospital – Katie White.
Katie shares her journey of growing up on a farm, attending college, and working in her family’s meat packing business before starting a career in healthcare. She explains what it was like for her to transition from working in a nuclear medicine practice to stepping into her leadership role at the hospital for the first time as well as the fears and challenges she has faced along the way and shares her insight and tips for other new aspiring leaders.
We also dive deep into the topic of why millennial women in leadership roles are feeling burned out at an earlier age than men. Additionally, we discuss what we have learned about ourselves as leaders after reading the book, Psycho-Cybernetics by Dr. Maxwell Maltz.
“As Leaders, we need to understand the need to continuously improve ourselves.” – Katie White
This week on The Aspiring New Leader Podcast:
- What are colleague engagement scores and how can they help managers, team and department leaders, and organizations?
- The challenges many women face around getting promoted within an organization.
- Why it’s critical for leaders to find a mentor.
- How Dan’s CEO Book Club has helped Jacob & Katie learn more about themselves and improve their leadership skills.
- Our biggest takeaways from the book Psycho-Cybernetics.
- Why actively writing down your goals and knowing what your goals are is important to help you productively pursue, improve, and advance your career.
- How the power of your imagination and visualization skills affect your leadership skills and ability.
- Amy Cuddy’s “Fake It Till You Make It” strategy – does it really work?
- Research shows that people who make decisions early in the day tend to make better decisions.
Jacob’s & Katie’s Top Tips for New Leaders:
- Shadow the colleagues that you are overseeing.
- Don’t be afraid to ask questions.
- Be yourself.
- Set clear expectations at the very beginning.
- Don’t let your emotions get the best of you.
- Understand that getting a promotion isn’t necessarily about climbing the corporate ladder. It can also be about the experiences you have had to get you where you are or where you want to be.
- You don’t have to be the subject matter expert to be a good manager in your field.
- It’s all about finding something you love and the experiences along the way – the people you meet, the knowledge you gain, and the relationships you’ve built.
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Read Podcast Transcript
002 – Millennial Women in the Workplace, Mentors, and Psycho-Cybernetics
DAN: Welcome to The Aspiring New Leader Podcast. I’m your host, Dan Perryman, and you have joined us for episode two. Today’s topics we’re going to be talking about millennial females in the workplace, the importance of mentors and coaches, and then top learning’s from a book that we read called “Psycho Cybernetics” by Dr. Maxwell Maltz.
First I want to thank all the listeners from episode one, we had a great turnout and we’re real excited because we had two listeners from the United Kingdom, our first ever overseas listeners. So if you two are there, if you could send me an email at firstname.lastname@example.org, you can include an audio file to that, and we’d be happy to play your clip on the air, because we’d really like to know how you access the podcast.
Alright, last week we had a special guest, Jacob Roddis. Apparently he now thinks he’s part of this podcast on a weekly basis, so he has joined us again here today. Jacob, welcome.
JACOB: Thank you. I never left; you know you have a turndown service?
Yea so did anything important in your life happen this last week that you would like to talk about for 30 seconds?
JACOB: The Chicago Cubs are World Series champions!
DAN: So those outside of the Midwest, it might not be a big deal, but it’s a big deal here in Illinois.
JACOB: It only happened 108 years ago prior to this.
DAN: Yea, well congratulations to the Chicago Cubs and good luck to the St. Louis Cardinal Fans out there. Alright so we actually have another special guest here with us today, Katie White. Katie works at the hospital that we work at and she’s in a management position. I will let Katie introduce herself real briefly and then we will talk about interesting topics.
KATIE: Hi Dan, thank you. I actually grew up on a farm not too far here from the hospital and I have two older brothers. The different jobs that I’ve held over my short working career have included working at my family business as well as working at this organization since I graduated from St. Louis University. Also a private a clinic, working as a nuclear medicine tech.
DAN: So your family business, tell us about that.
KATIE: Thank you for asking. It is a meat packing plant. But, I’m oh so glad that they started it over ten years ago because that is also where I met my husband.
DAN: Oh, nice. So he was a butcher?
KATIE: He was, sadly but surely.
DAN: He’s still a butcher right?
KATIE: Yes he is.
DAN: Shout out to all the butchers out there.
KATIE: We eat well! (laughter)
JACOB: Also the bakers and the candlestick makers. (laughter)
DAN: Alright, Katie you’ve moved into a management position recently. Talk about your journey into that.
KATIE: On my previous position in nuclear medicine, which is a very technical field, I actually became very unhappy in the field and just in my daily work. After missing a promotion I decided to go ahead and start my MBA at Millikin University. And from that time, in the middle of my MBA, I started looking around for other jobs, in and out of the organization.
DAN: So you kind of felt stalled in your previous job, is that why you wanted to move into management?
DAN: So was it always your goal to move into management?
KATIE: Actually, no. I had previously thought I would get my master’s in physics and become a medical physicist. I quickly learned that that was not the route for me, as its way too much time behind a computer.
DAN: There’s a lot of math involved.
KATIE: Quite a bit.
DAN: That’s cool. So your current job, talk about that a little bit.
KATIE: I work as the manager of admitting that includes the registration and the pre-access colleagues.
DAN: For those not in health care, what does that mean? What do you do on a day to day basis?
KATIE: We schedule the patients, we ensure that we have insurance authorization before they arrive and then we also register the patients whenever they arrive to the organization.
DAN: Ok great, so that’s kind of the history behind Katie’s experience. So Katie, you went into your first management position and you had no experience.
Challenges when New to Management
DAN: And you didn’t have your MBA yet. What were your biggest challenges going in?
KATIE: My biggest challenges were actually understanding my team’s role, building the team from the ground up, and earning the respect from my colleagues due to my young age.
DAN: Jacob, you spent some time in human resources before you went into the current management position. Do you remember your challenges going into your first management position?
JACOB: my first challenges going into my first management position were that about the same as Katie, I was leading those that were older than I was. Some of the other challenges were that it was a position that really made the decision whether somebodies job was on the line or not, so that was a stressful situation to be a new leader and then also affecting the lives of those who have had a career for a while.
DAN: Right it’s a little difficult as a younger manager. Katie, you’re how old?
KATIE: I’m only 25.
DAN: 25 years old. And Jacob’s a lot older than that at…
DAN: 31 and I’m much older, I’m turning 49. But I remember my first management position, coming out of graduate school. Everybody that reported to me was much older. And so that does create a challenge because these experienced managers look at you like “who are you?”, “who are you to tell me what to do?” and “why are you my boss?” Katie talk a little bit about that, do you have those challenges in your current role?
KATIE: I think they have actually subsided quite a bit already. I did feel that fear whenever I first came, even going into our first leadership meeting and being introduced, it was extremely intimidating to see everyone else that is my parents age and then I’m in this room as well and I get to have a voice now.
DAN: Yea it’s an interesting feeling, isn’t it? But I think that once you start demonstrating that you can do the job and that you care about the employees, then they start to accept you more as a manager, have you experienced that?
KATIE: Absolutely, it has been a completely mind-blowing experience for the positive that I have completely earned the colleagues respect in my department and even turning around our engagement scores from the 30th percentile to the 94th.
DAN: So tell us about the colleague engagement scores, what does that mean?
KATIE: The colleague engagement, typically engaged colleagues are going to be more productive colleagues, and those are the ones that we obviously want to keep in the organization. Whenever I came, it was a very disengaged group that had a lot of internal struggles with not respecting each other or their manager. There were so many unknowns when I came in. Now they feel a sense of clarity in what their role is, it’s extremely defined as well as what my expectations are, as their leader, on a day to day basis.
DAN: Disengaged equals, unhappy basically?
DAN: You came into a department with a bunch of unhappy people, in your first management role.
KATIE: Yes it was a great experience.
DAN: Yea that sounds like fun. Jacob, do you have any thoughts around this.
JACOB: As Katie has mentioned respect, I found that respect from the older colleagues came a lot sooner and a lot quicker if you didn’t act like you knew everything. If you weren’t afraid to ask them questions, find out what was really going on within their departments, and seek their help and guidance as well.
DAN: Humility plays a role.
DAN: Right, I learned that if you go in thinking that you know everything; it’s going to turn people away from you. But if you go in and show them that you don’t know everything and ask their help and their input, I think that’s a lot more successful formula.
JACOB: I agree. Those that are older than you tend to have a respect for you before those who are younger than you. Those that are younger than you are also attempting to establish their career. So they feel like they have to make a play towards a job or an assignment just as much as you do.
A Woman’s Perspective in Management
DAN: Yea, good point. So Katie, going into your management position as a female, did you find any challenges around that? But first, for those that don’t understand the hospital environment, we’re actually predominantly female. So probably about 80% of our employees are female so it may be a little different than other industries. Still I’m curious, Katie, did you find any challenges around that?
KATIE: Because I have predominantly female employees at the hospital, I actually did not see that challenge at all. It’s extremely minimal in health care. The only fear that I had is actually starting a family one day. I want to make sure that it does not discredit me from a promotion just because of my young age and the likelihood more having children one day.
DAN: That’s a great point Katie, so talk a little about that. So when you’re accepting this first position opposed to a man who goes into the position, you have to think about what happens if I want to start a family and I’m going to be off of work and I have young children. That’s something that me and Jacob don’t really have to worry about so much. Tell us a little bit about that.
KATIE: The only concern that I’ve really had is the time off of work because I don’t want to limit myself to the required six or eight weeks, but rather take the full twelve just to not lose that time initially with my new baby. However, I am lucky in the sense that my husband actually would like to be a stay at home dad. And that would alleviate a lot of stress on me in my management role by knowing that he is able to tend to our children, as well as our household duties.
DAN: I read this article that’s called “why millennial women are burning out at work by age 30” and it goes into that. So there are a lot of challenges around being a young woman in the workplace. So you not only have to work and work hard and prove yourself, but you have a family at home, you have other outside challenges. So this article makes a lot of sense around that, exactly what you’re saying, around ….there are a lot of challenges around moving up in the ranks as a female.
Tops 3 Tips for those New to Leadership
Alright what are, for both of you, are the top three tips that you can give somebody entering into a management position for the first time. Especially when you don’t have experience, what would be the top three tips?
JACOB: So the top three tips I would have for an individual going into a leadership position for the first time: One is shadow the colleagues that you are overseeing; find out what their job entails, what work they’re doing, spend time with them, that will gain some respect especially if you have not been over that department or area before. The second one is don’t be afraid to ask questions; if you don’t know the answer or you don’t know what understand what question they’re asking you, don’t be afraid to ask back to be where you need to be to make a conscious decision. And third …be yourself; they’ll take you a lot more seriously if you’re just yourself throughout the gate and if you don’t try to establish the persona of a leader.
DAN: Katie, do you have any additional thoughts?
KATIE; To tag team off of Jacob’s, I would say clear expectations from the very beginning of your new position and making sure that they understand your goals as well as you understand theirs and your department. Specifically for women, not letting your emotions get the best of us. We tend to be very touchy feely, more so than the men especially in our organization. However, really putting that aside and understanding that the practices we conduct are business.
The Value of a Mentor or Coach
DAN: Going back to that expectation comment we hear a lot that employees will say “I have no idea what my expectations are around this role”…we actually hear managers say that, so to your point to setting expectations….even though as a leader you might think that the expectations are clear, if you haven’t sat down with your employee and actually detailed out the expectations, I guarantee they don’t know what the expectations are. Their expectations might not be the same as yours, so they’re continuing to pursue their goals and what they think you want them to do. And it’s not always the same and we see that all the time, so that’s a really good point. Katie, talk about the value of a mentor or a coach because you’ve told me that your career wouldn’t have progressed the same without the mentors in your life
KATIE: Before I started my position I actually reached out to one of my previous MBA professors and she gave me some valid advice on how to start in my new position. And a lot of that related back to the clear expectations. I met with all of my colleagues individually and learned a little bit about them; get to know them a little more personally, as their personal life will most likely impact their work life as well. And then also my current mentor, that’s external, he challenges me by making me define truly what I want in life and when. The when part is crucial for me because e I could say I want to be a CEO, but he wants to know if that within the next 10 years? Or the next 40 years?
DAN: Yea it’s really important to find a mentor or coach that is objective and real. The last thing you want to do is get you your best friend to be your mentor, or get somebody that is going to agree with everything you say because the reason you’re getting a mentor or coach is so that they can help guide you and actually be critical of your progress and constructive of your progress. The value of mentors, I think, is really important. I think everyone should have one. Jacob, any thoughts about that?
JACOB: I’ve got two good mentors, one who just happens to be my boss who runs the podcast, so that’s a plus. And the other one is my boss, from my first management role, outside the organization and she still keeps in contact with me, still comes and we have status updates or a time we spend together monthly, able to text each other often. So having that connection is very helpful.
DAN: Obviously this is kind of a loaded discussion were going into because I started this CEO book club. I do think it has been valuable. So I talked about this a little bit in the first podcast that I started a CEO book club. We have six emerging leaders that have been in the position for, on average, probably 2 to 5 years. We’re reviewing books, were going to touch on this book here at the end of this podcast. Katie, what are your learning’s out of the CEO book club?
KATIE: My biggest takeaways have been to understand the need to continuously improve myself by always learning, no matter how it is, by listening to a podcast or by reading the books that Dan has set out for us. I’ve gained more confidence through it. Even in speaking up in meetings and knowing that what I say people do want to hear. It’s a huge boost of confidence for me at such a young age. I’m definitely more goal oriented now. I realized that not just setting goals, but truly visualizing those goals and piecing together all of the multiple parts of them and actually painting that picture so I can see “how do I visualize my office?”, “how do I visualize me going to work?”, “what do I see myself wearing?”, “what kind of door will I enter in?”…all of those piece together what sort of position you see yourself in for that goal.
DAN: And I’m just not saying this because Katie’s here, but she’s the rock star of this CEO book club and she’s brought a lot to it and she’s learned a lot. You’re very important to the book club too Jacob.
JACOB: Thank you.
DAN: Talk a little bit about the book club and what you’ve learned.
JACOB: I agree with Katie that a big piece of the CEO book club is the constant learning. So forcing us to read books that we normally wouldn’t read, discussion around those. Also that all the leaders that are in the book club are in a different place, so I think too as I’ve gone through experiences and we have open discussion, what can I offer them that will help them later on in their career?
DAN: So anybody that’s out there in more of an executive, management position I would highly encourage you to start some type of club where younger leaders have a chance to interact with you not just on a business basis but in the book club we talk about the books, but then we also get into how the home life is and how they’re setting goals and how they’re managing their life, not only during work but at home as well so it’s been really good for me as well. I learn a lot from everybody during the sessions too, so I really like it.
Psycho-Cybernetics – Goal Setting
DAN: So we’re actually going to move and talk about the first book that we read. And I don’t know how many people have read this, but this has actually become one of my favorite books that I’ve ever read. It’s called Psycho-Cybernetics and it’s written by Dr. Maxwell Maltz. He wrote this back in 1962 and it’s been updated over the years. He’s actually sold 35 million copies of this and if you research it, you’ll find that some of the best coaches and politicians across the world actually use this book because it’s all around goal setting and visualization, like Katie was talking about. The book covers a lot of topics and we’re just going to focus on just a couple. We’ll probably be coming back to this book in the future; I just think it’s so valuable.
The first major topic in the book is about goal setting. The book tells you, the author is actually a plastic surgeon in the 60s and 70s, maybe earlier than that. He became very interested in how people view themselves so goal setting and self-image became a big part of his research. So the goal setting, what he shares with in the book is that we all have goals, whether we know it or not. So if you sit down and say “I don’t have any goals that are specific” he’s going to argue that your subconscious actually has goals that you’re pursuing. So you’re always pursuing goals. The importance of actually writing down and knowing what your goals are so that you pursue a productive goal, rather than some unproductive goal that you’re not even aware of and I found that really interesting and as a result, I actually sat down and made sure I actually wrote down goals because I don’t want to be pursuing goals that I’m not even aware of, which is just fascinating to me. So Jacob, what are your thoughts on that? And share with us one experience of goal setting and how that’s worked.
JACOB: So actually let’s talk about how subconsciously you have a goal and you’ll work towards that is that when I was in Springfield working there, I wanted to be back in Decatur where I was closer to home working. That was underlying and I really wasn’t working towards it. As I kept moving along my career through Springfield, finally I got a phone call about an opportunity that was opening up in Decatur as I was finishing up my MBA that lined up with where I wanted to be. That’s how the book relates towards your goal subconsciously working for you, whether you are not. Another thing I picked up from this book in goal setting is that not only do you have to set goals, but those goals don’t necessarily have to be about your work, but can be something that will help you disconnect at the end of the day from your work. I’m going to learn to play the banjo.
DAN: So out of all the instruments that you could pursue, why the banjo? Although it is extremely popular.
JACOB: Well I don’t know if it’s extremely popular but, listened to Steve martin, found it pretty interesting. I like the sound of it, I like the bluegrass jazz, and the music that it gets into so I thought the banjo would be where it’s at. And I don’t have enough air to play the harmonica.
DAN: So since this is a podcast focused on millennials, Steve martin was this actor back in the 70s on Saturday Night Live so there are probably a lot of people who don’t know who Steve Martin is.
JACOB: Well I just shot that one in the whole millennial front.
DAN: That’s great. Katie, what about you with the goals?
KATIE: A goal for me has been with my hobby and my hobby, Jacob and Dan both know, is couponing. I’m an extreme couponer; I started back in high school actually and did it throughout college. I really developed my skill after I moved back home from my undergrad. I set a goal of no more than a 100 dollars a month at the grocery store for everything. And thank goodness I have definitely succeeded that goal and more.
DAN: That’s amazing. So the goal is to not spend any more than $100 a month on groceries.
KATIE: Correct, and any toiletry items.
DAN: So there may or may not be any extreme couponers out in this audience right now, but if you know one, please share this podcast with them. Katie is like the extreme of the extreme couponers. I think a pretty cool thing that you do is that you actually work with a local food pantries and you go out and get coupons and you go shopping for them to save them money.
KATIE: Exactly, I got started with that actually with my parents because they were donating meat to this food pantry so frequently, that they kept noting their need for other items. And more so, than just food, I went in and discussed with the director and he allowed me to have a hundred dollars a month budget, to go out and buy different toiletry items primarily.
Psycho-Cybernetics – The Power of Visualization
DAN: That really is cool. Moving on a little bit, the second part of the book that I find really important is the power of your imagination, the power of visualization. There’s an extremely popular ted talk by Amy Cuddy, she talks about fake it until you become it and the power of believing in yourself and visualizing progress. Katie you mentioned this a little bit about how you visualize success. Just talk a little bit more about that.
KATIE: So I started by developing a goal around being in leadership and in what organization as well, what field of work. So part of that I visualized, like I said before my office space, the organization as a whole, my drive to work because currently I have a 40 minute commute-and I actually enjoy that time because it’s my time to myself. And with that, I started actually giving that back to my colleagues by if some of them would come to me and ask “what do you recommend that I go into?” I would tell them “how do you see yourself going to work?” and “do you see yourself sitting at a desk all day?”, “do you see yourself up talking to patients all day? Or customers?”, “what line of work do you see yourself in?” so that way you know where to start pursuing your goals that…and start applying for those positions otherwise you’re never going to make it there.
DAN: So prior to this book, I thought that this visualization stuff was kind of hokey, my personality is definitely none of this soft, visualize, and you know, like Amy Cuddy said “fake it until you become it”. But I’ve actually experienced this recently. I don’t know if you two know, or if anybody knows, I’m actually working with this acting coach, he’s a Hollywood actor. He’s one of those actors where you don’t recognize his name, but you look at his bio and he’s been in a ton of Hollywood movies and acted in plays and musicals and all this, so kind of a big deal out in Hollywood. The reason I’m doing it is I don’t want to become an actor, but I think it will make me a better presenter and communicator, that’s the reason I’m doing it. We’re working on this script just to practice memorization and I couldn’t memorize it. I was working all week to memorize this script and I was like, I don’t know, I’m almost 50, my memory doesn’t work and he shared that memory is more of a skill than anything else. And the reason I’m telling this story is because the power of visualization and imagination…so he taught me this technique where you actually create a story with very vivid images around every word in the script and within a day and a half I created this-the script is probably only four pages long or something like that-but I created this story around this script. So you imagine the story as it’s playing out and seriously within a day and a half I had this entire script memorized because it was all connected to this imagery that I developed, which I just found absolutely amazing. And so now I’m kind of a true believer and my nutrition coach has actually been saying this for a long time about visualizing what you want to become. It’s kind of a real deal and I think it really works. Jacob, do you have any experiences with that?
JACOB: Yea, so I started doing visualization for five minutes in the morning, I’m with you Dan; it’s hard for my personality to think of visualization and kind of those soft skills. So I’ve started by just doing five minutes at a time when I wake up to become alert and more oriented for the day to visualize how that day is going to go. The meetings I have, the interactions I have with people, finding that my day then runs a little more according to plan than it did previously. Another way I’ve used it in my life is before I go to play golf I’ll visualize myself on the golf course hitting shots at each hole.
DAN: In the book he talks about this research study where they had golfers, either practice on the golf course or sit in a chair and visualize their practice and what they found is that the progress from the people who actually just visualized it was just as good as the progress for those who practiced, maybe even better. Anybody out there that’s interested in golf, there you go, you don’t have to go out and practice anymore. Just sit in your chair and visualize the swing. Have you tried that at all, Jacob?
JACOB: Yea I have, it’s a lot more comfortable to do it that way than it is to go out and practice a whole lot, but it does work your muscle memory almost just as well with sitting there visualizing than it is with swinging the club.
DAN: But one of the key takeaway of that is, they have the coach actually demonstrate the proper way to swing so you have to make sure that you’re visualizing something that is correct. You know the old saying that “it’s not about practice, it’s about perfect practice”. You have to make sure you’re visualizing something that’s correct. I think that’s an important point as well.
JACOB: You don’t want to visualize bad habits.
DAN: Right. Jacob, you have one more topic you want to discuss around the book.
Psycho-Cybernetics – Stop Trying to Solve your Problems
JACOB: Yea so one more topic from Psycho-Cybernetics is that it teaches you to stop trying to solve your problems by conscious thought. That really stood out to me in the book as I work through my day or with family, you try to solve many problems in a day and it’s proven that you are only able to solve so many problems in a day and when you get to a point where your problem solving is done, it’s over. You’re basically shot for the day. So you can work through problems and not necessarily come to an answer, but if you go and do something else, if you pick up a hobby, or I find that a lot of my thoughts, the best thoughts in the day or best problems solving comes while I’m in the shower. So it’s just a thought that comes to me and I’m not consciously thinking about it but it’s almost like it comes out of thin air.
DAN: That’s typically it’s when you stop thinking about something that you get the answers the research shows around decision making that you want to make your most important decisions early in the day because you only have so much energy to make good decisions. And so by the end of the day, you’re tired and it’s a lot harder to make decisions. And they actually have studies about parole in prisons that show this that more or less people get parole by the time of the day the parole board meets, which is really interesting. Alright so this has been a great discussion, the book again is Psycho-Cybernetics by Maxwell Maltz. I would highly recommend that you go out and buy it or listen to it on audio book, it’s probably been the most important book at least in my mind that we’ve read in our CEO book club that I’ve read in a long time. So any concluding thoughts before we wrap up?
KATIE: Mine is revolved around millennials specifically. It’s just understanding that getting a promotion in your line of work is not necessarily about climbing the ladder. It’s so different than how it as for our parents in that they thought they had to go from a front line worker, to a supervisor, to a manager and continue to work themselves up. Compared to now, millennials are switching jobs frequently because they’re trying to find the right niche for them as well as understanding that that’s the new norm for climbing the ladder. And actually we want more on the experiences versus staying with the same organization for 40 years.
DAN: So how do you look at your future, because you’re in a position you like. What do you see in your next ten years? Have you mapped that all out specifically? Or is it just, you’re heading in a kind of a general direction?
KATIE: The biggest thing that I’ve already learned from my position is that I don’t have to be the subject matter expert to be a good manager in my field. My plan is to become a part of the administrative team and continuously look for ways to grow in the healthcare field.
DAN: Yea that’s great. Jacob? Any concluding comments?
JACOB: Yea, I’m with Katie, it’s all about, for us millennials, is finding something we love. Whether that be the career we started in, or the career we go to. With that, it’s the experiences along the way, so it’s the people we meet, the relationships we build, and the knowledge we gain from it.
This has been a great episode today. Thank you Katie and Jacob for joining me on this episode. Again, we would appreciate any feedback you have. You can email me at email@example.com. Please visit at the website, thelowcarbleader.com and please go to iTunes and download and subscribe to this. We did learn from our last episode that non- iPhone users, like Android users, you can’t download from iTunes. So if you go to Stitcher Radio, you can go to your phone, download the Stitcher app, and subscribe to the podcast that way. So thank you for joining us today and we look forward to publishing our next episode next week. Please join us next week and take care and keep learning.