Authentic-leadership-with-jai-wolfe-phd

 

 

 

 

 

 

Becoming a great leader is more than the way you communicate and collaborate with your team. To truly become a great leader, you need to learn how to lead with authenticity. On today’s episode, Dan and Jacob chat with Jami Wolfe, Ph.D, an organizational psychologist at CMA Consulting in St. Louis.

Jami earned Bachelor’s degree from William Woods University with double majors in Business and Psychology. She later earned a Master of Science in Industrial Organizational Psychology from Perdue as well as her Ph.D in Organizational Psychology from St. Louis University.

Jami is a native of St. Louis and a die-hard Cardinals fan. Today, she explains what an organizational psychologist is, how they help businesses, organizations, and leaders discover and improve their authenticity, and shares tips and tools to help new leaders begin their discovery journey before hiring a consultant.

“You are always on stage – whether you like it or not. You set the tone for your entire group.”

In This Episode of the Aspiring New Leader:

  • Jami explains why she believes there isn’t a “correct profile” or correct set of competencies for every leadership role.
  • She explains what it means to develop your own authentic leadership style.
  • She shares how getting clear on your purpose, what you stand for, and what you are driven by are the keys to unlocking your authentic leadership style.
  • She explains why constructive feedback is critical to developing and improving your authentic leadership style and how to find people who will give you the objective feedback you need.
  • She explains that leaders often get caught up in their intent without recognizing that their impact is the only thing that matters.

How to Become an Authentic Leader:

  1. Ask yourself questions that will give perspective on who you are, what you stand for, and what your purpose and vision is – write them down.
  2. Evaluate and be thoughtful of your answers.
  3. Seek out your trusted advisors and get their feedback.

Jami’s Top Tips for Aspiring New Leaders:

  1. Seek out information. Invest in books and materials to improve your leadership skills authentically.
  2. Ask yourself what you stand for, who you want to be, and how you want to live it out.
  3. Work on you. Continuously seek feedback from key stakeholders – your bosses, peers, and the people that report to you.

 

Key Takeaways:

  • Doing the work of understanding who you are and what you stand for will have significant positive outcomes on your, your team, and your organization.
  • It doesn’t matter how authentic you think you are if your reputation doesn’t align with or help your success within your organization.

 

Resources to Discover & Develop Your Authentic Leadership Style:

 

Reach Out to Jami Wolfe, Ph.D:

Read Podcast Transcript

013 – Authentic Leadership with Jami Wolfe, PhD

DAN:
Welcome to The Aspiring New Leader podcast, a podcast focused solely on leadership, education and development for those of you new to leadership or those of you considering a leadership career. I’m your host, Dan Perryman, and you have joined us for Episode 13. Today we have a great interview with Jami Wolfe, PhD. Jami is an organizational psychologist and works for CMA Consulting in St. Louis. Jami received her Bachelor of Arts degree with a double major in Business and Psychology from William Woods University and a Master of Science in Industrial/Organizational Psychology from Purdue University. Her PhD in Organizational Psychology is from St. Louis University. Jami is a native of St. Louis and a diehard Cardinals fan. And she enjoys spending time with her husband and three children. I have known Jami for several years, and I can attest that she is a great executive coach and a great organizational psychologist. So on to the interview.

Welcome, Jami.

JAMI:
Thank you for having me.

DAN:
Yeah, we’re very happy to have you on the show. We have Jacob here today.

JACOB:
How are you doing? Happy to be here.

DAN:
So Jami, do you want to tell us a little bit about yourself?

About Jami Wolfe and CMA

JAMI:
Yeah, definitely. So I work for a consulting firm in St. Louis called CMA, Colarelli, Meyer & Associates. We are a group of organizational psychologists. And what that means is that we help people in businesses to be as effective and productive and engaged as they can be. Me personally, I have a PhD in an area called Industrial Organizational Psychology. And for my practice I do a lot of executive coaching, leadership assessment, leadership development, succession planning, talent management, all those things that, again, help individuals be as effective as they can be in their roles and organizations.

DAN:
Yeah, and in full disclosure, you’re my executive coach right now, so I hope that the audience doesn’t hold that against you in any way.

JACOB:
I think we should do a podcast on that.

DAN:
On Dan’s competency?

JACOB:
Yeah, exactly.

DAN:
Yeah, yeah.

JAMI:[Inaudible 0:02:41.8] want to and people to call in for that.

DAN:
Yeah, we definitely don’t want that live.

JACOB:
We don’t have that sort of time.

DAN:
And I’d need to move the couch in. Today we’re going to talk about authentic leadership.

Identifying Your Leadership Style

JAMI:
Yeah, absolutely. So at CMA we really fundamentally believe that people make or break a business, and yet there isn’t one right profile or one right set of competencies for all leadership roles. So we’ve put a lot of effort into helping our clients identify their own authentic leadership style. So what does that mean? That means helping an individual understand their strengths, their competencies, their unique style, their possible derailers, and how all of those characteristics play out in their work environment and overall in their career so that they can really continue to make sure that they are leveraging their strengths but in a way that feels appropriate to them.

Think about it like your home. When you go to different rooms in your home you might have some slightly different paint colors on the wall, maybe even a few different furnishings, but all in all the house feels like your home. If you have done a good job of identifying what your authentic leadership style is, wherever you go in your home, so work with one set of friends, with another set of friends, with community groups, it will always feel like home to you. And so that’s why we think it’s really important to help people identify very clearly for themselves what is that feel.

DAN:
When clients come to you are they looking to become better leaders, or to refine their management style or to create a new management style? What do you typically find?

JAMI:
We see all of the above, and regardless of what they’re looking for we walk them through a similar process because the process doesn’t change. It’s just the outcomes that might change based on what the client is looking to do. And that process really is spending time with some deeper thought questions and reflection around who am I, and how did I get here? What is my purpose? What do I stand for? What am I driven by? What gets me up in the morning? What are some of the life experiences that I’ve had that have really shaped who I am and how I do things today?

And so we spend a lot of time on that reflection and really just gathering all of this information and writing it down and then taking a look at that information to say what are the themes here? Based on these life experiences, the answers to those thought questions, your future focus, so what you want to be known for. If you’re sitting – you’re heading off into the sunset of retirement, what is it that you want your legacy to be? If you are sitting at the table at your 80th birthday, who’s there? And what are they saying about you? If you compile all of those things together, that will tell you something about yourself that you may not already know, or you may have an inkling but don’t have it clear-cut in your mind.

So authentic leadership is all about getting your purpose, what you stand for and what you’re driven by very clear in your mind so that you can be intentional about living out that style regardless of the day, regardless of the situation. So that’s not to say that an authentic leader is rigid and can’t flex their style or be adaptable to others around them. But what that does say is it gives them a North Star, some grounding about in what ways am I going to adapt? How am I going to flex my style to engage with this individual or with this organization in a way that still feels true to who I am and what I stand for?

DAN:
How self-aware are people that come to you? Do people typically know their style already, or does it come as a big surprise through all these assessments?

Self-Awareness and Aligning your Leadership Style with your Organization’s Needs

JAMI:
I would say it’s all over the map. We certainly have leaders that come to us that have been through some version of this exercise or some type of assessment in their career, and they are more self-aware. And what we are trying to do with them is just take it to the next level, maybe deepen that further, maybe help clarify it even more, maybe think about how they use that style in a new organization that they are in because you can be an authentic leader in an organization that has different expectations of you than what you will be able or willing to live up to. And that isn’t going to work out effectively. So it’s all over the map.

Those who lack that self-awareness or think they know certainly get real value out of the assessments to helping identify this. And when I say assessments, it’s normative information that gives individuals insight into their key strengths and possible development opportunities or derailers across a broad spectrum of traits, personality tendencies, behavioral approaches, critical thinking skills, their motivators and drivers. And oftentimes we will encourage leaders to seek out some reputational feedback. And what I mean by that is some type of multirater input from key stakeholders around them. Sometimes that’s just internally in the organization. Other times they may have key stakeholders in addition that are outside their organization. And what that gives the individual is more perspective on the gap between how they see themselves versus how others see them so that they can identify if they have a branding problem.

So maybe they understand their authentic leadership, or they’re at least putting in the work to develop this, and they think they’re heading in the right direction of being able to communicate who they are, and they go through this multirater feedback and get some surprises about how others describe them and what others may need from them, in which case, that helps be more clear with how they need to live out their authentic leadership style in the organization because, again, it’s not – success in a role and in an organization isn’t just about being an authentic leader. That is a very important component, but it’s about aligning your leadership style as closely as possible to the needs of that role and to the needs of that organization at that point in time and being aware where there are gaps so that you can fill in those gaps with other individuals who may be stronger in certain areas that are needed or possibly even adjust your leadership approach in that situation, or your leadership knowledge, to be more effective.

DAN:
You mentioned the 360 evaluation where you can get feedback from others. Talk a little bit more about that because I know that’s kind of a scary process for some people. I know going through it in the past you almost have a fear around it of what other people are going to tell you.

JAMI:
It is a very vulnerable experience, and I don’t recommend it for everyone. When I’m doing an intake interview with a new coaching client some of the questions that I’m asking are related to their current relationships in the organization, to the challenges that they are facing in their role, to honestly the political realities of the organization. A multirater feedback is best suited for an individual who has generally sound relationships. There are always folks that may not be your biggest fans, and it may be important to know their perspective on your strengths and development opportunities, but at the least generally sound in their relationships and in their role in the organization, have been in the role long enough for people to provide feedback, so at least six months, and are inviting feedback from participants who see them in action on a regular basis so that they can provide candid feedback. Those – and they have to be willing. They have to want it because you, as you know, Dan, having gone through this, you will get feedback that you don’t necessarily agree with. And that might be surprising and may hurt in some ways. So you have to really want to hear those messages, the good, bad and the ugly, in order for this to be a worthwhile and developmental exercise versus being an overly-critical and demotivating exercise.
However, if the individual is in that situation where they want it, they’ve been in the role, they do have a good range of folks to get feedback from, it is invaluable in helping the leader understand the impact that they are having on others and the perception others have of them, again, because reputation is important. It doesn’t matter how authentic you think you are if your reputation does not align with that or your reputation does not help your success in the organization. You won’t be successful, ultimately or long-term, in your leadership role.

JACOB:
How much of past experiences and how someone has rose to the position they’re in affects their self-awareness in certain situations?

JAMI:
I would say maybe it’s less about the different roles they have been in and how they have come to their current role. It is more about the individuals they have had the fortune or misfortune to have around them as they have been going through their life. Individuals who have a history of relationships that have been transparent and leaders and mentors who have provided developmental feedback for them along the way, and fundamentally they have felt support throughout their lives, so they’ve been comfortable seeking out that critical information or being receptive to it, certainly have a much better success rate of being self-aware than those individuals who have not had the experience of working with leaders or teachers along the way that have been willing to give them critical feedback.

JACOB:
How difficult or easy is it to then refine those individuals?

JAMI:
Those that this is a brand-new experience for them, there has to be some kind of motivation, ideally intrinsic motivation, for them to want to do this. Occasionally I will end up coaching leaders who the motivation is extrinsic. They’ve been told by their organization in different words, you have a reputation problem. This isn’t working for us. You need to figure out why that is and how to get better. If the organization is very clear that their job is at risk, or their status is at risk, they’re willing to at least, generally on a surface level, explore this type of knowledge about themselves and make some – put some effort into making some changes that can help them in that situation. However, the ones that come to us who really are at a point in their career where they want to understand how do I be even more effective in this role, in this organization, in who I am, in the legacy I want to leave, are absolutely much more willing to hear the feedback and make the fundamental changes that may need to be made in order to really live out that authentic leadership in a way that works for the organization.

DAN:
Jami, this podcast is directed toward those that are new into leadership. So what would your tips be for somebody getting into leadership? Say they cannot afford an executive coach, or the company won’t pay for it. What can they do to start becoming a better leader and to find this authentic leadership style that’s within them?

Self-Assessment Advice for New Leaders

JAMI:
The first thing the individual should do is ask themselves a handful of questions that will provide perspective on who they are, what they stand for, their purpose and their vision. And all you need to do is Google “authentic leadership” or “leadership purpose” to find a myriad of questions they can use. And they can pick the ones that fit best for them. The second thing then that they need to do is take a look at their answers. Spend time being thoughtful about their answers. Unless they’re in a crisis situation where they’ve been told they’re failing, there’s no need to hurry this. It’s something that you want to think about on your daily run, or in the shower, or your drive time to work.

So write these answers down. What do you stand for? What are you driven by? What gets you up in the morning? What do you want to be said at your 80th birthday? What legacy do you want to leave by the time you leave your organization? Take a look at that picture. What does it represent? What do you stand for? What is your purpose in your career? And ideally that aligns reasonably well with your overall life. And then get feedback. Seek out your trusted advisors. Share with them what you see as your leadership purpose, your strengths, your growth areas, and invite them to give you their feedback about how they view that, what they might add and advice that they might have for you about living out your leadership style even more effectively and clearly in the organization. And all you need are a couple of points of advice or tips and tricks to get you started, and that will go – if you get that far, that will go farther than most people get in terms of understanding themselves and their leadership style.

DAN:
As you’re looking at these authentic leadership questions, how do you ensure that you’re being honest with yourself because I’ve gone through this for a couple years, and it’s really hard to look at yourself in a real critical way? How do you ensure you’re being honest with yourself if you don’t have an objective third party?

JAMI:
Start by asking yourself why are you doing this? So remember when I said you have to have some kind of motivation to do this because it’s work that doesn’t – that’s not tactical. You can’t immediately see an output. And it’s vulnerable. To your point, Dan, it can hurt to reflect on some of these failure experiences along the way. So why are you doing this? Get clear on the reason behind that, and let that then be your guide as you find yourself maybe being a bit too surface level, not being candid enough. Well hey, I said I’m doing this for these reasons, and these reasons really matter to me, so I’m going to continue down this path.

And if you find that it’s just not worth it to you, well, that’s okay. Focus your energy in other areas. Just write down what you see as your couple of core strengths in your role, one growth area you might have for yourself to be either more effective or to prepare yourself for a future role. Get some feedback from your manager on that, and at least have some point of focus for your upcoming year and beyond without doing the deep, reflective meaning work. You have to want to do this.

JACOB:
You know, you pointed out that to find somebody that will be honest with you. We talked a little bit about that in a previous podcast and how important it is to have someone that is not necessarily related to you or someone that you can bounce ideas off that are going to give you a straight answer. But it’s kind of difficult to find those people. Do you have any tips to help those new leaders, kind of what type of personality traits they should look for in that?

JAMI:
Anyone that they feel has their best interest at heart but has also been willing in the past to hold them accountable, to give critical feedback, individuals they feel close enough to to ask for that constructive feedback, individuals that it’s safe for them to give constructive feedback. Maybe reach out to a former boss, or a former peer, or a former subordinate and ask for their input. And you know, I’ll tell you spouses are amazingly direct and candid, and while their feedback may not fully apply to a work situation, I on the occasion that I’ve had a chance to interview a spouse as well, the overlap in the feedback between the spouse and colleagues at work has been quite high. So they are a good source if you are willing to be vulnerable and ask these tough questions.

I will share with you some of the most important feedback I’ve gotten in my career actually came from my husband. You know, I had just finished my PhD, and I’m in a top-five consulting firm, and I’m flying all over the country with these Fortune 100 companies. I think I’m just super smart and, you know, cream of the crop. I don’t know what the argument was we got in that day, but he said, Jami, you aren’t as special or as good as you think you are. There are other people out there just like you who can add even more value and do it in a way that is more palatable.

DAN:
It’s funny you say that because, Jacob, we have your wife on the phone.

JACOB:
Oh no.

JAMI:
I will never forget that moment. As angry as I was at him in that moment, that plays through my mind all the time to remind me, be humble. You certainly have a skill set and a knowledge set, but so do other folks. And really make sure you’re meeting people where they are. So think back to what your parents told you. Think back to what your spouse has told you. Think back to what friends have told you. And don’t over-rely on that one source of data, but certainly recognize that can be an informative source of information.

DAN:
In your practice do you find that supervisors don’t hold their employees accountable and this contributes to the lack of development for future leaders?

The Importance of Giving Constructive Feedback

JAMI:
It does. Tough conversations are hard. Holding people accountable is hard. So I find very frequently that leaders are not giving constructive feedback where it is both helpful and necessary. They tell me they are when I’m coaching them, and then as I’m reaching out to their people what I’m hearing is I just don’t get enough feedback. I’m not sure where I stand. I don’t know if I’m doing a good job, if I’m not doing a good job. The message that they are giving is too diluted to have the impact that it needs to have. And that’s not to say that you’re harsh in your language, that you’re browbeating someone, that you’re beating a dead horse, so to speak. But it is to say that you sit down with compassion, with the frame of mind that this individual deserves to know how the organization views their performance because if I don’t tell them, no one else is likely to tell them, and they may end up out of the job, not prepared for the next role that they might be interested in and not growing as much as they could grow in their career.

DAN:
It’s really our duty to share this information. I mean the outcome; if you don’t share negative information the outcome is probably going to be bad anyway. So this at least gives that person an opportunity to recognize their weaknesses and their strengths, though. In the past I’ve talked to colleagues about their performance, and their performance has probably always been like that their whole career, and it comes as a surprise because it’s the first time anybody’s ever said something to them.

JAMI:
The thing is it’s only a surprise to them and not everyone else around them.

DAN:
Exactly.

JAMI:
And that’s the problem.

DAN:
Right. That’s a great point.

JAMI:
They can’t do anything about the things they are unaware of. And going back to the 360 or the multirater feedback, if I think it’s the right thing for an individual, you know, some of those criteria I gave you earlier, and I’m sensing some hesitation, what I will say is it is still entirely up to you, and I’m only going to do this if you want to do it. But what I want you to know that you’ll get from this that you may not get from any other source is how others perceive your effectiveness, your strengths and your development areas. Me asking these questions is not going to create new information. I’m merely highlighting for you, putting on the table things that may not be known to you at this point in time. And wouldn’t you rather know?

DAN:
You know, going back to when we first started working together I still kind of laugh because for those that don’t know, my personality is not really detail-focused. It’s kind of out there. I don’t know what the technical term is, but you know, not focused, maybe bigger picture type of stuff. But I remember you said something like, oh, we’ll just have to work around that. And I’ve always remembered that. And what you meant is my personality is never going to be where I’m focused on the details. It’s just never going to be that way. So you recommended I find somebody in the organization that is detail focused, and then they can kind of complement my personality and you can accomplish the task. Talk a little bit about how you complement each other’s personalities in teams.

Building a Diversely Talented Team

JAMI:
Yes, definitely. That is why one of the intrinsic reasons that this whole authentic leadership concept should be important to a new leader, to really get a deep understanding of your natural skills or developed skills and traits so that those that aren’t skills and traits of yours you don’t fall into taking those on, and you don’t build a team around you that can do those. And so ultimately you end up not being as successful as you can be. One of my favorite quotes of all time is from Peter Drucker, and he says, “It takes far less energy to move from first-rate performance to excellence than it does to move from incompetence to mediocrity.” So it’s clearly a push for focus on your strengths, be aware of things that could derail you, and if it’s a slight development opportunity and you want to get better, absolutely there are most likely ways to do that. But for the majority of your time we want you focused on your strengths and building a team around you to help shore up those things that may never be one of your true talents.

JACOB:
You also spend quite a bit of time with the teams that are associated with the leader that you’re coaching, too, so that you can point out and help direct maybe how some of their weaknesses or opportunities would be picked up in other ways on their teams, too, correct?

JAMI:
Yes, definitely. In the executive coaching work that I do, I do try to spend time with the individual’s team when I can so that I can see the work that that individual is doing, how it is being received by the organization. A lot of times leaders get caught up in their intent and don’t recognize that their impact is the only thing that matters. Our intent is what is in our head, in our heart, and we fundamentally believe that it’s all in the right place, but if that doesn’t have the impact on those around us that we intend it to have, it doesn’t matter. So that is why I like to spend time with teams, saying what is the impact this individual is having on you? Here’s what we’re working on. How is it working? What advice do you have for this individual? Because again, authentic leadership isn’t about being rigid; it’s about understanding yourself well enough to know how to best flex to others in the organization and to the organizational expectations as a whole.

DAN:
And as a leader, when you’re building a team the last thing you want to do, correct, is to get a bunch of people just like you?

JAMI:
Absolutely. We would call that a big blind spot, unless, for whatever reason the task of the team, the objectives of the team really only require this one perspective and approach. But I would say that would be pretty rare.

DAN:
Jami, to a new leader then, what would be your top several tips?

Self-Education, Personal Reflection and Sharing Feedback

JAMI:
First of all, seek out information. Read – there are a myriad of leadership books out there, even one called The First 90 Days that’s an oldie but goodie. Another one of my favorites, Marshall Goldsmith’s What Got You Here Won’t Get You There. There is a book called Learning Journeys: Top Management Experts Share Hard-Earned Lessons on Becoming Great Mentors and Leaders. That is also by Marshall Goldsmith. Pick up one or two of these books and do some reading. What are the lessons learned from these individuals? Do that reflection work yourself. What do I stand for? Who do I want to be? How do I want to live that out? Continuously seek feedback from your key stakeholders, your bosses, your peers, the people that report to you. Work on you.

Secondly, work on your team. Expect these things of them as well. You don’t have to be a leader to want to be authentic in your work. And so give feedback. Receive feedback well. Ask; tell your team to expect them to be giving it to each other. Create an environment where feedback is safe, and in your one-on-one discussions that you’re having with each of your subordinates, which you should be having – it doesn’t necessarily have to be on a daily or weekly basis, but there needs to be some kind of one-on-one discussion – have these conversations. How do they view their purpose, their future, their strengths, their development opportunities, how do you view that, and what support can you give them, and what do they need to help them move forward?

DAN:
You mentioned several good books, and I also recommend The Aspiring New Leader podcast. That’s available on iTunes. To the point of assessments, do you prefer StrengthsFinder, Myers-Briggs, is there certain tools you prefer?

JAMI:
I prefer tools that are well-validated and have been peer-reviewed in top journals. So basically what I’m looking for are tools that are both reliable – so if you take them once you’re going to get a similar score the second time you take it – and valid, they predict what they say they are going to predict. There are a handful of tools on the market that do that well. We use the California Psychological Inventory or the Hogan battery for personality. We use the Management Research Group, MRG suite for things like behavioral style. We use the Watson-Glaser and Raven’s for critical thinking. So there are a number of tools out there that fit those criteria. And you want to get a breadth of information. So that’s why we use tools that assess critical thinking, personality, behavior and motivators so you’re getting as robust a picture as you can of yourself.

DAN:
And since I took all those tests I really enjoyed the advanced calculus part on that. I’m still trying to figure out the two trains coming toward each other, where they meet.

JAMI:
If you know math is not your strength you don’t have to take that one.

JACOB:
Which one is that? I need to check it off now.

DAN:
That’s wonderful. Do you have any closing comments?

Setting a Positive Tone for Yourself and Your Group

JAMI:
What I would say is that for any level of leadership or any professional in their career, doing this work of understanding who I am and what I stand for has some significant positive outcomes. It will help you be better engaged in your work and your environment because you know how you want to engage and what you’re striving to accomplish. It will help you know where you’re best served to say no so that you are not in a situation where you have no strength and really no potential to develop that strength; you’re setting yourself up for failure. At the very least you would be very demotivated doing it. It will help you be more comfortable in your skin so that you can allow others to be who they are, as well, and give them more freedom and latitude to shine in however it is that they will shine. So there are a lot of positive business outcomes for why you might want to put in the work to do this.

Two phrases I like to say to new leaders, one, you are always on stage. Whether you like it or not, that’s the nature of the role. And two, you set the tone for your group. Think about leaders you have had in the past or even people you’ve been around that were influential in some way who set a negative tone. How did that make you feel? How did that make others in the group feel? And what did that do to your engagement and your productivity? You don’t ever want to be the one when the team sees your car in the parking lot they all hide or they all become, ugh, she’s in again. You don’t want to be the one that people walk around your cube or go the other way when they see you coming. You set the tone.

JACOB:
I think one of the things you pointed out early that really resonates with me is that your brand is very important, and not a lot of people focus on their own brand or realize that how they are in their career, how they are at home, how they are in social media, everybody else picks up on that. So like you said, you have to be self-aware, and that when you’re being fake we know it.

JAMI:
Right. I like to tell leaders, new leaders especially, you have a brand whether you know it or not. So it would be helpful for you to be clear about what that brand is and you own it to versus letting those around you define it.

DAN:
Those are great tips. Jami, how can people find out more about you and about CMA?

Available Resources from CMA

JAMI:
Absolutely. Our website is www.cmaconsult.com.

DAN:
And there is a lot of resources on your website.

JAMI:
We do. There are a lot of resources on our website that can help with authentic leadership. We also offer training programs in authentic leadership. We have a program called The Leadership Advantage, which is a three-day intensive course that is more broad beyond just self. So authentic leadership, we like to think about leadership in terms of leading self, leading others and leading the organization. Authentic leadership fits squarely in leading self. That program can also raise your skill set in leading others and overall leading the organization, which is things like strategy, innovation, mergers and acquisitions, those bigger-picture type things.

DAN:
Oh that’s great. Jami, thank you so much for being on the show today. As always, it’s such an enjoyment to talk with you.

JAMI:
Well thank you for having me. I really enjoyed the conversation, and hopefully some of your new leaders listening to the podcast have gotten a couple of tips and tricks to take away.

DAN:
Yeah, that’s great. And I encourage you to reach out to Jami and CMA if you are looking to learn more about authentic leadership or about your workplace in general. Very helpful, great resources, and we enjoy working with her. So Jami, thank you very much for being on the show.

JAMI:
Thank you.

DAN:
Thank you for joining us on the show today. We hope you enjoyed the interview with Jami. If you enjoy the podcast please subscribe on iTunes or Stitcher Radio. Also, visit us at thelowcarbleader.com where you can find links to our Facebook, Twitter and LinkedIn page. Until next time, take care and keep learning.

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